2022-06-04
Perennial truth(s)
Shan (2022-03-11):
There has never been any so outrageous and insane balderdash which some philosopher had not represented as an absolute truth.
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero
How very true even after 2000 years!
Thol (2022-03-11):
Is this an absolute statement (truth) about not-there-being-an-absolute-truth?
Removing the double negative (which is likely to confuse) Cicero's statement means:
There have been many outrageous and insane balderdash which some philosopher had represented as an absolute truth.
Is Cicero in the above statement saying there can be no absolute (perennial) truth?
Cicero is only saying people have been saying (representing) many insane things as 'absolute truth' which is quite right (we can agree).
False perceptions to intentional lies are everywhere. False perceptions and lies are defined only by true perceptions and truths. The pairs go together.
I don't know what Shan really meant to convey by sharing this quote. If it is to convey that there can be no absolute truth, the response is yes and no.
Yes - because such 'thinking / discussing' is the play (whether there is an absolute truth or not) and within the play absolute & relative truths exist
No - the split of absolute and relative doesn't exist except in the play
Until one sees through the play, any amount playing will not settle the question. Once it is seen, the question doesn't arise (loses its validity).
Shan (2022-03-11):
No. Perennial truth is my statement, not Cicero's. I said it is perennial since it seems true even after 2,000 years. It is certainly not perennial. In any case, it does not speak about all philosophers and all statements. It talks only about balderdash, which is only a subset and also at least one philosopher who represents it. So it is not an universal statement about all philosophers and all theories.
Thol (2022-03-11):
"One can only attempt a rational, descriptive philosophy of the universe on the assumption that one is totally separate from it. But if you and your thoughts are part of this universe, you cannot stand outside them to describe them. This is why all philosophical and theological systems must ultimately fall apart."
- Alan Watts, A. (2011). The Wisdom of Insecurity: A Message for an Age of Anxiety, Second Edition. New York, NY: Vintage Books (page 114)
Philosophy includes metaphysics and hence materialism which says only matter exists and all including mind are epiphenomenon. This doesn't include empirical science since it is metaphysics-agnostic. You don't need to subscribe to any metaphysics to do science. Irrespective of your belief about the existence of an objective external world, observations and modelling can be done without any hindrance.
As I understand, Advaita (and similar ways like zen) is not a philosophy / metaphysics. It may start with some metaphysical concepts but when fully understood it requires us to drop even the concept of 'Advaita' leaving us with the direct raw experience which has been always so.
Whatever we say and do are part of nature including any classification of truth and falsity. That is the problem and seeing through that is the solution (by dissolving the idea / concept of 'problem').
Let us forget that empirical science is only modelling reality based on observations. Let us take it that there really is an objective external world as materialism says.
Even under materialism, taking consciousness as the epiphenomenon of complex arrangement of matter, everything including consciousness (Zen, Advaita, religions...) must be expressions of nature.
As expressions of nature all of them must be valid. If some of them are considered as false, such classification is also an expression of nature. Is it seen where this is going?
Irrespective of materialism or idealism (Advaita, Zen...), the conclusion is the same - our sense of separation (being a mortal person against / in an overwhelming purposeless blind universe) is an expression of nature. Taking it seriously can bring about suffering. Seeing through it and taking it lightly but sincerely can be liberating. Such seriousness, suffering, seeing through and liberation all being nothing but expressions of the same nature / existence / reality / universe / quantum field (whatever name...)
This realisation / knowledge (everything is an expression of nature / எல்லாம் இயற்கையின் / இறைவனின் செயல்) can be superficial or revealing / transformative / pulling-down-the-ego / liberating / opening-the-eyes / enlightening / collapsing of all conceptual structure... etc. Also it can be a sudden awakening (like from a terrible nightmare) or a slow and steady waking up (lucid dreaming).
One cannot do anything about it. One cannot do nothing about it - Alan Watts
ஒன்றும் செய்ய முடியாது. ஒன்றும் செய்யாமலும் இருக்க முடியாது.
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